tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20782819.post5685353898931793064..comments2023-11-12T13:22:30.358+01:00Comments on andrewjshields: Within Shouting Distance of the CoosaAndrew Shieldshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02804655739574694901noreply@blogger.comBlogger3125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20782819.post-44702612566379724802012-02-10T12:02:17.596+01:002012-02-10T12:02:17.596+01:00I take your points Andrew. Maybe I'm being per...I take your points Andrew. Maybe I'm being pernickety, but I still think 'young as I was' is redundant. He has already said he is young 'and given to aimless ambling', both of which imply a certain naivety (youth and naivety usually go hand in hand). But let's see how it reads without that preamble (and the 'do not disturb' sign):<br /><br />'...But I heard a hum or what<br />I thought could be a hymn rising<br />from behind the altar and squinted<br />to see the worker bees dance and circle<br />where they'd swarmed. I understood <br />"not one step closer," so backed<br />away...'<br /><br />As far as I'm concerned, 'I understood' implies the rest without spelling it out. But we can agree to differ.<br /><br />Re the cliche in pop songs and poetry, that's contiguous to an argument I have often made, about how the traditional techniques (narrative, rhyme, etc.) are often tolerated in pop/rock music while being dismissed (or worse) in poetry. I detest snobbishness; I think there should always be room in both poetry and music to embrace popular or idiomatic turns of phrase (the music hall and folk ballads have their place in contemporary writing, as they did in Auden's work, along with rap, rave, etc.). But words, without the slave of music, are drier and more difficult. So I do think that poetry has a harder task to roughen up and make something fresh and surprising out of shiny, well-worn phrases, whether it is simply giving a slightly new twist to that old turn or performing some radical surgery,as Muldoon does in his Symposium: https://www.msu.edu/~sullivan/MuldoonSymposium.htmlMark Granierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09899629187771913398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20782819.post-73204558409526763502012-02-10T11:04:55.215+01:002012-02-10T11:04:55.215+01:00Two responses, Mark: "Young as I was" se...Two responses, Mark: "Young as I was" seems to mean "even though I was young and naive," which does not seem redundant to me here. <br /><br />Secondly, and more importantly, while I share the sense that cliche is problematic in poetry, I'm also increasingly struck by its effective and often quite powerful use in songs. Many refrain lines that are great fun to sing along to are cliches, but that does not reduce the pleasure and power of the experience of singing along with them. And if cliche can be so effective in song, I wonder what makes it more problematic in poetry.Andrew Shieldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02804655739574694901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20782819.post-41868271843445723232012-02-09T11:21:06.364+01:002012-02-09T11:21:06.364+01:00Yes, that rhetorical question midway struck me as ...Yes, that rhetorical question midway struck me as awkward and arch, completely unnecessary (though in keeping with that 'Once' that open the poem). Other things too. For example, the 'young as I was' is a redundant cliché, and why do we need 'do not disturb' after the more interesting 'not one step closer'? It's as if the speaker doesn't completely trust its readers and keeps insisting on holding our hands. But the poem does evoke an atmosphere and the narrative is compelling.Mark Granierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09899629187771913398noreply@blogger.com